The God Contention

What unique evidence is there for your religion or worldview? Can you prove that what you say is true?

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CHRISTIAN View

In the words of the late Greg Bahnsen, the most basic proof of Christianity is that if it were not true, it would be impossible to prove anything at all.

If the non-Christian worldview is true, the laws of logic are not valid. Therefore, even though non-Christians use logic to interpret evidence, they have no real justification for doing so. In the non-Christian worldview, logic is not something that can be trusted.

Christians alone do have a basis for recognizing that the law of non-contradiction applies everywhere and at every time, past, present and future. Our basis is the character of our God.

According to the Bible, the Creator of all things is consistently logical. He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2) and He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13).

Further, all truth and knowledge is in Christ (Colossians 2:3), who is God (John 1:1), and who created all things (John 1:3).

As Christians we know that all things have been created by One who is consistently logical, and therefore the laws of logic are both universal and invariant. Because He holds the keys to all knowledge, we also know that logical knowledge is possible.

Christianity, as we see, has grounds for trusting logic -- for claiming that the laws of logic are always true, a claim that other worldviews have no basis for making.

An easy way to demonstrate this latter point, that non-Christian worldviews deny the validity of the laws of logic, is to begin at the beginning.


TIME BEGAN

We see that time past has ended. To avoid infinite regress, we must acknowledge that it also began.

Infinite regress is logically incoherent. To suggest that there have been an infinite regress of past moments is to suggest that we have come to the end of an infinite series. An infinite series, however, is by definition a series with no end. So this would mean that we have come to the end of a series with no end, which is logically incoherent.

Infinite regress would mean that we have iterated, one-by-one, through every single item of an infinite series. But an infinite series always has more items than those that have been iterated through. We would have iterated through something that cannot be iterated through, which is logically incoherent.

If we were to go backwards through each previous moment in past time, and there were an infinite number of past moments, there would necessarily be some moment in the set of previous moments that we would never, ever get to. If that were not the case, it would not be infinite. If there is some supposed prior moment in the set of previous moments that we could never get to while iterating backwards through all previous moments, then, iterating forward from that moment to the present moment, we would never arrive at the present moment for the same reason that going backwards we could never arrive at the previous moment -- namely, the infinite (or unending) number of moments in between the two.

Infinite regress would mean that we have completed something that cannot be completed. We have traversed something that cannot be traversed. We have itemized what cannot be itemized, counted what cannot be counted, spanned what cannot be spanned.

Infinite regress violates the logical law of non-contradiction.

So we quickly see that Time Past is not infinite, and must therefore have been finite.


THE BEGINNING WAS CAUSED

To suggest that time began uncaused, or anything beginning uncaused for that matter, is absurd... it is the same as suggesting that having nothing and adding nothing to it, something results, or in other words:

0 + 0 > 0

I like to refer to this kind of thinking as "Atheist Math". In Atheist Math, zero is not equal to zero, violating the logical law of Identity.

Ultimately, there is some kind of cause of time, and to again avoid infinite regress, there must be an ultimate First Cause of time.


THE CAUSE IS ETERNAL

If the cause of time were somehow temporal, it would require the passing of time to exist, making what's known as a circular dependency, another type of infinite regress, which violates the logical law of non-contradiction.

Therefore, being not bound by time, it is, by definition, eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27).

Since it is outside of time, it does not inherently change over time, which means its inherent qualities are unchanging (Malachi 3:6).


THE CAUSE IS PERSONAL

Since it is the First Cause, it must be uncaused.

Since it is the uncaused first cause, it is self-directed and self-motivated and acted volitionally, which, simply by definition, makes it personal (Job 13:8). If it were not personal, it would not be capable of self-directed, self-motivated, volitional action, preventing it from being the First Cause. It would be the First Cause and not be the First Cause, violating the logical law of non-contradiction.


ATHEISM THUS INCOHERENT

Thus, a personal, unchanging and eternal uncaused First Cause clearly exists because of the logical impossibility of the contrary. This rules out all possibility of Atheism, Agnosticism, Ignosticism, and any worldview that claims that past time has been infinite, or that the Divine Initiator is temporal.

Every temporal action or activity has to have a personal, uncaused First Cause ultimately behind it, from the movement of light away from the sun, to the decision to share your last chocolaty caramel Rollo with the person you love, to our very recognition of right and wrong. Any event that takes time had to begin, since time itself began, and if that event began, then it must have been caused, and if it was caused, then there must ultimately be a personal uncaused First Cause behind it.


POLYTHEISM INCOHERENT

This tells us that if there are multiple personal uncaused First Causes, multiple ultimate authorities, they must be working in perfect eternal unity. Otherwise, in areas in which they disagreed, things would be and not be, or happen and not happen, at the same time and in the same way. That would be logically incoherent, again violating the logical law of non-contradiction, thereby rendering knowledge of any kind absolutely impossible.

So there must be either one singular ultimate authority (known as Unitarian Monotheism), or else all these personal authorities must be in perfect, eternal and divine coordination with each other, of one mind, one purpose, in total unity, and as such a truly singular authority, like the three persons of the Christian Trinity (Trinitarian Monotheism), for example.


WE DON'T DO WHAT WE OUGHT

We are each keenly aware that this unified personal ultimate authority, or "God", has caused us to have a guiding sense of moral justice which we call our conscience, and we are also aware that we are unable to perfectly obey it.

Man's disobedience to the ultimate authority serves as a foundational problem resulting in the establishment of essentially every religion.

However, non-Christian religions tell us that the solution is that we must do better -- that we must be perfect -- that we must fix the problem of sin.


WE ARE IN DEBT

God has provided us with time in this life during which we ought to obey the moral code He gave us. If any amount of time is spent in disobedience, we have spent that time in a way other than we should have. Since the time was provided to us by the God that also informed us of how we should use it, and since we have not used it all as we ought, to right this wrong, additional time must now be spent the way the wasted time ought to have been spent.

Among other things, we owe God time.


WE CAN'T FIX THE PROBLEM

We cannot create additional time for ourselves. Any time we have was provided to us by God to be used in obedience to Him. Any more time that God gives us will only increase our debt to Him, and, since the ultimate authority is absolutely united, there is no other way for us to get extra time.

Suggesting that we can pay back our debt of time in submission to our Creator "on our own" is really no different than suggesting that we should borrow from our lender to pay him back for money we borrowed from him earlier. The debt would never get paid that way.


ALL REMAINING WORLDVIEWS INCOHERENT

To claim that we can pay off a debt to our Creator is to claim that we own something that He has no authority over. But we have already established, via the necessary perfect unity of all Personal First Causes, that absolutely everything we own comes from Him, and that He has authority over all of it.

Thus, to suggest we can pay Him back for what we have misused is to suggest that the One in authority over everything is not in authority over everything. This again violates the logical law of non-contradiction, disqualifying all remaining worldviews.

Christianity, by contrast, tells us the only possible truth -- that we aren't in charge, and we can't be perfect: we can't fix the problem of sin.


GOD CAN FIX THE PROBLEM

However, self-evidently, the unified One in ultimate authority can fix the problem. (Mark 10:26-27)

In fact, He has.


ONLY CHRISTIANITY

Only Christianity tells us about the God who loves us so much that He took our penalty on His shoulders -- it tells us that, in addition to the Son's eternal and perfect obedience to the Father in our place, He also shed His own blood on the cross to pay the debt of our sin, provided we accept His free gift (Romans 6:23; John 3:16; Acts 20:28; Revelation 1:5; Romans 10:9).

Only Christianity fully recognizes the reality of sin, the inability of man to fix the problem, and the graciousness of a perfect God to solve it for us.



Ultimately, all the clear and unquestionable proofs in the world cannot and will not convince a rebellious person to trust his Creator, because he intentionally suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18).

Some claim that God's existence cannot be proven, since, if we could prove His existence, we would not need to have faith. However, this is simply not the case. God tells us that everyone knows He exists (Romans 1:20). Trusting the God that we all know exists is what the Bible calls "faith". Without this faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

So we see that the Christian has every justification to assert his worldview as absolute truth, while the non-Christian, were his views true, would be incapable of asserting anything at all. If Christianity were not true, the laws of logic would be invalid, and every assertion would be meaningless.

The most basic proof of Christianity is that if it were not true, it would be impossible to prove anything at all.

How Can We Know the Bible is Valid?

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ATHEIST View

Naturalism is currently the most scientific form of atheism. Naturalists believe that given what we know at present, Naturalism is probably true. Our evidence comes from all the sciences, but also from what we have not discovered despite constant searching: applying the best methods and the most disciplined standards, we have failed to find convincing evidence of any supernatural power or being. Evidence presented for such things has always turned out on close examination to be fabricated, misunderstood, or misrepresented.

In contrast, we have consistently found natural causes and explanations for the things we observe and experience, for centuries now, and the results have steadily led us toward a unifying, naturalistic worldview, never away from it. This makes it highly probable that everything else will turn out to have a natural explanation, too. Because so far, everything we have thoroughly investigated has done so, without exception. We simply have never found anything else to exist, or to have any other cause, than matter-energy and space-time. So probably that is all that does exist. This is the first and most important reason we believe naturalism is probably true.

We have countless examples of how the evidence has panned out this way. The cause of lightning was once thought to be God's wrath, but now we know it is the unintelligent outcome of mindless natural forces. The solar system was once thought to be incredible proof of an intelligent being arranging and maintaining the orderly motions, but now we know it is all the inevitable and predictable outcome of mindless natural forces. Disease was once thought to be the mischief of demons, but now we know that tiny unintelligent organisms are the cause, which reproduce and infect us according to mindless natural forces.

Likewise, the amazing organization of animal and plant bodies was once thought to be proof of instantaneous creation by God, but now we have an enormous and growing body of evidence that this is all the product of an amazingly long and blindly meandering process of natural selection, which is in turn the inevitable outcome of mindless natural forces. The story has been the same, again and again, for everything we thoroughly examine. When we see that the same horse keeps winning, millions of times over, and no other horse has ever even crossed the finish line, of course we decide to bet on the winning horse.

But even where we have yet to gather all the required evidence to be sure, the evidence we do have continues to point in this same direction. This is clear even on the three greatest frontiers of scientific inquiry: the origin of the universe, the origin of life, and the nature of consciousness. Science is still collecting the evidence it needs to answer these questions, so the scientific verdict is not yet in. But the verdict of philosophical probability is already clear: not only from all past precedent (like the story of lightning, the solar system, disease, evolution, etc.), but from what scientists have already found out about the universe, life, and the human mind. There is far more to each story than can be covered here, and though we believe it all points to Naturalism, we shall only look at some examples below.

The second most important reason we believe Naturalism is that it predicts the universe must be a certain way, and it just so happens that the universe turns out to be exactly the way it has to be if Naturalism is true, yet not at all the way we would expect on some other theory.

For example, according to Naturalism, life could only be an accidental byproduct of the organization of the universe, and the only way it could be that is if the universe is so incredibly old and so incredibly big that something as improbable as the origin of life would be possible. But we can think of no other good reason for the universe to be so old and big. A god, for example, has no good reason to make a universe that is over a hundred thousand times as old as the entire human race has even existed, and over a hundred billion times as large as the entire solar system. But on Naturalism, the universe has to be that old and large. Therefore, Naturalism predicts exactly the universe we find ourselves in, but Creationism does not, and in fact makes little sense of it.

We see this again and again, even in some obvious ways. The prevalence of pointless misery and harm caused by nature, and the utter indifference of the natural world toward human happiness, and the complete absence of any supernatural agency enforcing moral order or righting wrongs or fixing problems, makes no sense on any theory that a caring God exists, for example, but is the only way things could be if Naturalism is true. Once again, the evidence fits Naturalism.

Likewise, the total confusion and disagreement in the world as to any supernatural reality is also something Naturalism predicts, but that makes little sense if there is a supernatural reality. If there is none, then obviously no two cultures are going to "discover" the same reality, but each will invent its own opinions and conjectures completely different from every other. But if there was any genuine supernatural reality, everyone should be able to see the same thing.

We also observe that there is no way to resolve religious disagreement by appealing to the facts (as we can do in science) because it appears there are no religious facts to appeal to. So everyone who wants to promote his own religious "facts" can do so, and that is exactly what we observe: while science constantly unifies and achieves worldwide agreement across all cultures, religion constantly divides and diversifies, achieving no agreement at all, not even within a single culture. That makes little sense to us if there is any supernatural truth, but is exactly what we would expect if Naturalism is true.

Even on the three frontiers we see the same outcome:

In cosmology, for example, the leading scientific theories of the origin of our universe that are being investigated, which actually predict and explain the strange features and properties of the world (like why there are such strange things as "bottom quarks" or "neutrinos" or "Bose-Einstein condensates" or why the speed of light is what it is, and so on), involve no supernatural or intelligent beings, just natural causes and events, and yet they predict exactly what we observe: a universe that is almost entirely lethal to life (by far most of existence is a radiation-filled vacuum) and instead perfectly suited to black holes (which thrive in a radiation-filled vacuum, and to which most material in the universe is devoted to building). Indeed, we ask, why would our universe manufacture a trillion times more black holes than life-bearing planets? No other worldview makes much sense of this, and certainly none actually predict this strange observation--except, so far, Naturalism.

Likewise, when it comes to the origin of life, no other worldview makes much sense of the fact that life began as a single-celled organism constructed from a very simple self-replicating chemical (just four amino acids, with a simple chemical backbone), then took three billion years to finally stumble upon a multi-celled form, and then took a hundred million years after that to diversify into a set of standard optimal forms, and then took hundreds of millions years beyond that to develop even something as simple as a flower. Naturalism predicts exactly this, for this is the only pattern of development that is possible if Naturalism is true. But no other worldview readily predicts such a pattern.

The theories of life's origin that are now being investigated by scientists, again, involve no supernatural or intelligent beings, but appeal to nothing more than natural physics and chemistry. Yet they predict exactly what we observe: that life began as one tiny cell and only later evolved more complex forms, and only after an incredibly long time of trial and error, and that all life on earth is related and can be shown to have derived from some common ancestor that has since gone extinct (we have proven this the same way we prove the paternity of human fathers, but also from converging evidence in the fossil record). No other theory predicts this, nor does any other theory make much sense of it. Why, for example, do we need to be made of cells at all, each cell with a complete genome in it? We believe Naturalism explains this better than any other worldview.

Then there is the human mind. There is a lot about this that we still don't fully understand, but scientists are learning more every day, and what they have found so far points to Naturalism. We have identified how memories are stored, where emotions and reason operate or sensory experience is processed, and so on, and always we find that a physical part of the brain is required for each thing, so that if we take away each part, we take away the memories and abilities it contained, which means if we take away all the parts, we take away all that we are--our whole mind. That is what Naturalism predicts must be the case, but this is not what we'd expect if any other worldview was true.

The only way a mind could exist if Naturalism is true is if there is no other way to have a mind (and all the benefits of intelligence and consciousness) without a relatively gigantic machine to generate it, like our huge brain. But if Naturalism is not true, we could have consciousness without a huge, complex brain--because we could have something like souls, for example, which can't be injured, can't become damaged by wounds or disease, and don't hog the lion's share of our oxygen and food.

For instance, if God exists then obviously a mind can exist and function without a brain, so we wouldn't need brains any more than God does. So why do we have them? Naturalism alone predicts that we must. No other worldview makes as much sense of this. We believe our large, delicate brains are not what a God would give us, since they are hugely inefficient, consuming an enormous portion of our oxygen and food, they are easily damaged or harmed, they frequently malfunction, and they have to be so large that without modern medicine, nutrition, and hygiene, nearly one in seven mothers dies in childbirth. As far as we've seen, only Naturalism has a good explanation of why it has to be this way.

In every other case we look at, in any field of study, we find the same conclusion: once we actually investigate, we find that all the evidence supports Naturalism more than any other worldview. That is why we believe Naturalism is probably true. For more information see:

Naturalism as a Worldview

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HINDU View

In our tradition pramana (evidence) is divided into several categories. The first and most important is revealed truth which comes to us in the form of sastra pramana (evidence from the revealed scriptures). Two other categories of evidence which are important as support to the first are called pratyaksha (experiential knowledge) and anumana (logical inference).

Because God is beyond the ability of the mind and intellect and is also not directly percieved by the senses our only hope of knowing him is if he chooses to reveal himself to us.

One can look at historical evidence, forensic evidence and other types of empirical evidence to try to verify claims made in sastra. This is a good exercise and will yield some helpful knowledge, but it will not prove all that is said in sastra.

Also, after having read the sastra and contemplated it's meaning a person can reflect on it and their own life experience and make some judgement as to the legitimacy of what is said in sastra. But that also will not prove everything that is said in sastra. It will convince most honest persons that there is some truth in sastra, but they will not be convinced by such an exercise that everything in sastra is true. Nor will the mere conviction that it is true actually directly yield spiritual vision.

Krsna gives an answer to Arjuna in Bhagavad-gita which is the perfect answer to this question. Arjuna has just been shown the universal form of God and asked to see him again in his original two armed form. Krsna explains to Arjuna that he cannot be seen (understand here proven) by study of the sastra, by penance, by austerity nor by charity. He says he can only seen seen as he is standing before Arjuna by those whose eyes are smeared with the salve of love. Only unto those who have uninterupted and unmotivated love and service to him does he reveal himself.

That brings up an intersting question. How can a person devote themselves 100% to loving service to Krsna is they don't know him? The answer is that a person can get a glimpse of who Krsna is from sastra and from their own intuition and life experience. That glimpse can grow by taking up practices recommended in sastra. As a persons vision becomes clearer they become more and more dedicated and faithful, eventually they will become a fully surrendered devotee. The process is gradual and depends on the sincerity and inner necessity of the practicioner.

Here is a mundane example to illustrate what I am talking about. Let's say someone tells you that they have buried a million dollars. They tell you the exact coordinates of the burial site and how deep the treasure if buried. They, for whatever reason, have no use for the treasure and you are free to uncover it. From such a description you will not know that there is indeed a treasure there. Based on the credibility of the individual (according to your judgement) and your necessity for the treasure you may decide to investigate. If you follow the persons instructions you will eventually know. But first you must have some faith or some necessity that drives you to action. Without that the treasure will be just an idea. In the same way sastra tells us all of the greatest treasure and how to uncover it. According to our judgement of the credibility of sastra and our inner necessity for such a divine treasure, we will act according to the instructions of sastra to uncover our treasure or that treasure will forever remain a mental construct with no verified proof of it's existence.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting and likewise, the proof that Krsna is God and that you have a unique relationship with him can only be had by devotional service to him, by following the dictates of sastra.

In this age the process Krsna has recommended for finding the proof in your own conscious experience is the chanting of his holy names. By recitation of the holy name of God with sincerity and earnest yearning one will gain some inner experience and will find all the proof they need.

Comments

Trekgeek1 writes:
"Non-Christian worldviews have no basis for believing that the logical law of non-contradiction is valid in every place and at every time. Therefore, even though non-Christians use logic to interpret evidence, they have no real justification for doing so. In the non-Christian worldview, logic is not something that can be trusted."

What?! You are an idiot. You have made an unsupported claim (but look who I'm talking to) that " Non-Christian worldviews have no basis for believing that the logical law of non-contradiction is valid in every place and at every time." How do you determine that they do not posses this? Again, your narrow and self serving opinion have strengthened my Atheism and especially, my rejection of Christianity.
Lucy Furr :) writes:
@Trekgeek1

I think, with the issue you raised to Timothy, we are dealing with a classic case of an argument from ignorance fallacy combined with a god of the gaps fallacy (on Timothy's part, that is.)

On multiple threads, Timothy neglects responding to requests that he support his claim that the non-Christian has no justification for using Logic to interpret evidence. His claim seems to stem from his own lack of knowledge of reasons to accept the laws of logic as true (Argument from Ignorance fallacy.) He then seems to turn around and, in attempt to fill his epistemological gap of knowledge, invoke God as his reason. Not because he has evidence for it, but because it is the only "answer" he knows of (classic god of the gaps fallacy.) Needless to say, I don't really find Timothy's rhetoric to be persuasive in the slightest.

The claptrap of drivel Bahnsen clones constantly babble on about examined critically on this blog: http://tinyurl.com/4m4gwv7
Lucy Furr :) writes:
Oh, and here is another page worth reading. It shows presuppositionalism for what it really is: http://www.katholon.com/Logic.htm

The title of the page is "Does Logic Presuppose the Christian God?"
Timothy McCabe writes:
Lucy Furr,

On multiple threads, like in my answer above on this very page, I have supported the claim you dispute.

Further, my personal reasoning does not come from a God of the Gaps theory, but from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If Christ is true (and I know that He is because I know Him), then it is absolutely certain that every negating worldview is false. If they are false, then their claims contradict reality, making them unquestionably incoherent, whether I can prove it or not!

Since I know for a fact they are incoherent, I can feel perfectly at ease saying so, with or without proof.

Of course, as I said, I think I do make an argument for my case perfectly clear on this very page. It doesn't seem as though either of you have read it.

God bless.
Lucy Furr :) writes:
Again, you do nothing to demonstrate your claim :) Have a read over the second link I posted to see a thorough refutation of presuppositionalism. As to your "personal relationship," what reason do you have to believe it is accurate? A Muslim claims personal experience and validation of Allah. A Hindu claims personal experience and validation of Krishna or Shiva. If a Muslim's personal experience is true, or if a Hindu's personal experience is true, then your view is incoherent. According to your reasoning, they can say with equal certainty that your view must be incoherent, with or without any proof. You must claim that they are fooling themselves in some way. But when you claim that, your views also fall to this objection, as you can also be fooling yourself. And I suspect that you probably are, since you cannot provide any evidence for your claims.
Lucy Furr :) writes:
And I have read your post. The assertion that trekgeek1 calls you out on falls to the exact fallacies I presented in my first post.

You also go on to present many red herrings in your post: a flawed first cause argument, straw manning polytheism, flawed moral notions, straw manning non-Christian moral philosophies, preaching from a presupposed notion of God, etc. All red herrings. None of these, nor anything in your entire long winded and tiresome post, support your claim that non-Christians have no real justification for accepting the laws of logic as true.

Presuppositionalism fails on every level. It's a dishonest trick that tends to confuse the average layman ignorant of philosophy. Pure, unadulterated sophistry.
Timothy McCabe writes:
Lucy,

TAG says:

P1. Logic presupposes the Christian God.
P2. Non-Christian worldviews use logic but deny the Christian God.
C1. Thus, non-Christian worldviews are false.
C2. Thus, Christianity is true.

Apart from its plethora of groundless assumptions, assumptions that (to its credit) it often very clearly states it is making, the 2nd article you linked to seems to be arguing, primarily, that P1 is never defended. Likewise with the 1st article you linked to.

Of course, almost my entire answer above is a defense of P1, so your links are not only next-to-irrelevant to this thread, they are also inaccurate.

To demonstrate that P1 is valid, simply find a contradiction that necessarily exists if the Christian God does not. There's nothing more complicated or confusing about TAG than that.

[continued]
Timothy McCabe writes:
[continued]

In my answer above I have pointed out logical contradictions inherent in non-Christian worldviews.

In response, you have hurled disassociated terminology at my arguments and linked to inaccurate material.

If you truly believe your complaints are legitimate, please explain how they apply to my arguments.

Thanks.
ThatGuyWithHippyHair writes:
Of course, if someone were to demonstrate that at least one logical contradiction necessarily exists if the Christian God DOES exist, your entire argument falls flat. For instance, if the Christian God (whose traits supposedly include omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, and an infinite nature) does exist, his nature is inherently contradictory. A being cannot be both omnipotent and omniscient. If God is omnipotent, he can do anything within reason. He is also completely at liberty to do anything he desires. He has free will, clearly, for if he doesn't, he seems to have the ability to create a being with a trait that he does not possess. This trait, moreover, is something that Christians (and most non-Christians) believe is a good thing. It is desirable to have free will. So it stands to reason that God has free will.

(continued)
ThatGuyWithHippyHair writes:
But if God has free will, then he cannot be omniscient. Omniscient entails knowledge of everything, past, present, and future, including every action that God himself will take. If God knows exactly what he will do, then how does he have free will? You may contend that God does not know what he will do, but if this is true, then not only is God not omniscient, he cannot be certain that his actions will be logically consistent. How powerful is God's knowledge, exactly? Is he able to see the consequences of his actions in a way similar to humans, yet not necessarily in an omniscient way? The Christian God seems to be a very vague concept.

Then there is the problem of God's apparent inability to reveal himself to nonbelievers. Surely Christians believe that God wants people to know he exists. Some Christians would even have us believe that it is possible to logically deduce that God must exist, without any faith required.

(continued)
ThatGuyWithHippyHair writes:
If this is the case, then why does God remain completely invisible? Why is it that a being who desires that people know his existence, and of whose existence knowledge would be very valuable, refuses to show himself? Surely it is more important for humans to know that God exists than to know that rocks exist. Why are rocks more apparent than God?

The Christian might see this as childish complaining about something that we atheists aren't smart enough to figure out for ourselves without tangible evidence, but it is a legitimate problem. It shows that God's nature is logically incoherent. A God cannot be both (a) wanting that humans know his existence and (b) invisible to humans, and indeed impossible to prove without arrogant and dishonest arguments like the one proposed on this page.

Don't Christians believe that angels have both full knowledge of God's existence and the ability to reject him if they choose? Why aren't humans given this privilege?

Thoughts?
Timothy McCabe writes:
Hippy,

You basically make two arguments. First:

P1. If anyone is omniscient, they have determined the future.

P2. If anyone has free-will, then their future is not determined.

C. Omniscience and free-will are logically contradictory.

I agree with the argument, but not your resolution of it. You resolve this by saying the Christian God does not exist, but Christianity resolves it by saying that no one (not even God) has this type of free-will.

http://www.godcontention.org/index.php?qid=164

Certainly, God is not capable of doing other than what He knows He is going to do.

[Continued]
Timothy McCabe writes:
Your second argument:

P1. God wants us to know He exists.

P2. God does whatever He wants.

C. God has therefore proven His existence.

However, you say, God has not proven His existence; thus, either P1 or P2 (or both) are false.

According to Christianity, though, God has clearly demonstrated His existence, but we humans convince ourselves that He has not because we want to be in authority ourselves. It isn't an issue of information or facts or evidence -- it is an issue of will (Romans 1:18-20).

Keeping this in mind, even if my arguments above are horrendously awful, unconvincing and fatally flawed, the claim of scripture is not that Timothy McCabe has perfect arguments, rather, the claim of scripture is that all of us already know the truth even without my arguments -- we just don't like it.

God bless.
Anonymous writes:
If God wants humans to believe he existed, he has the ability to make it so that we all end up believing in him before our death whether we want to or not. In fact, he has the ability to make it so we want to, and do. The fact that people can and have died either unaware of or disbelieving in the Christian God proves that one of two things is true: either we have free will and can choose to not do something God doesn't want us to do, or God does not want everyone to believe in him before they die. The latter could be true for any of a myriad of reasons, such as his not existing.

Continued
Anonymous writes:
However, free will to go against the will of God, to make a choice that he actively wishes us not to make and, presumably, is doing what he can to keep us from making it, is the kind of free will that--if I'm not mistaken--you earlier said nobody, not even God, can have. So it's safe to assume this doesn't happen because of our free will. The only explanation, then, is that God doesn't want us all to believe in him before we die. This seems to be borne out by people who live and die never hearing anything about the Christian God, dying completely unaware that Jesus ever lived, and never even considering the possibility of an all-powerful being. Why would God not want us all to believe in him? He is benevolent, meaning he wants as many people as possible to go to Heaven and accept him. He is free to do whatever he wants, so he will presumably be sending as many people as possible—all of them, as he can do anything—to heaven, despite that some of them will not believe in him.

Continued
Anonymous writes:
The Scripture, however, says that the only way to eternal life is through Jesus. If God sends these people to Heaven without them knowing about Jesus, the Scripture is false; if he can't send them to heaven because they don't believe Jesus is their Lord and Savior, he isn't omnipotent; and if he could but doesn't because they don't believe in Jesus, he isn't benevolent, since he doesn't want as many people as possible to go to Heaven. Any one of these situations would make your idea of Christianity incorrect (the Scripture is true, God is all-powerful, God is benevolent), yet they are the only valid options assuming the premises are true.
Timothy McCabe writes:
Anonymous,

The kind of free-will you are suggesting is utterly incoherent:

http://www.godcontention.org/index.php?qid=164

Every choice we make is caused by a prior cause, extending necessarily beyond our temporal beginnings, ultimately ending in a necessarily personal, eternal, omnipotent God.

Your alternative, slightly reworded, that God does not want everyone to trust in Him before they die, is indeed borne out by the scriptures (ie. Proverbs 16:4; 1 Samuel 2:25; John 12:40):

http://www.godcontention.org/index.php?qid=317

He is certainly benevolent toward His elect, but all others will be condemned. This is why you should repent and join the forgiven.

As a final note, to suggest that those who reject Him don't believe that He exists is certainly false, as He has made Himself more plain than day (Romans 1:18-20).

Thanks for the comments. God bless.
Luke Cuddy writes:
“…the most basic proof of Christianity is that if it were not true, it would be impossible to prove anything at all.”

The problem here is that this begs the question. We’re trying to figure out whether Christianity is true—that’s what’s at issue—so we have no idea what the world would be like if it were true or false, since we don’t know whether it’s true or false yet. Once we establish that it’s true or false, THEN we can create conditional statements like the one above.

So, Timothy, how can you establish that Christianity is true, since that’s what’s at issue in this question? What evidence do you have?

Admittedly, all the rest of your argument is valid and, possibly, sound and flows from the first premise encapsulated in the above quote. However, the first premise is not sound and begs the question for the reasons I stated above.
Timothy McCabe writes:
Luke,

According to the Bible, no one is unbiased (Mark 9:40; Luke 11:23). Since the Bible is true, this makes it impossible to reason from "middle ground", since "middle ground" doesn't exist. This means instead of making one argument from neutrality, we ultimately have to make two arguments: one presupposing Christianity, and one presupposing not-Christianity. The first will be successfully circular (if Christianity, then Christianity), while the second will inevitably fail to be circular (if not-Christianity, then Christianity).

In my answer above, I first demonstrated, briefly, that the problems that assail other worldviews do not assail Christianity. Specifically, if Christianity is true, reality is coherent; knowledge is possible, etc.

I then proceeded to demonstrate that if Atheism is true, reality is not coherent; if polytheism is true, reality is not coherent; if monotheism sans-Christ is true, reality is not coherent.

[continued]
Timothy McCabe writes:
[continued]

Since Christianity is coherent, and not-Christianity isn't, Christianity is therefore true.

If you think this is not what I did in my answer, please explain where I digressed from this outline.
Luke Cuddy writes:
Thanks for replying Timothy. I agree with the Bible that a true middle ground doesn’t exist. We only need to research the confirmation bias to realize this. However, you seem to be employing the perfectionist fallacy here: because we can’t be perfectly unbiased we can be as biased as we want in our reasoning, presupposing all sorts of things for which there is no empirical evidence. But this doesn’t follow. Sure, we can’t ever reason from a middle ground, but we can get close.

We are justified in presupposing certain propositions are true if there is some evidence or reason to think they might be true. Quantum theory, for instance, might not be true, but scientists are perfectly justified in presupposing it’s true in their arguments because, at the least, there is a mathematical basis that may or may not represent reality.

[continued]
Luke Cuddy writes:
You did not digress from the outline. Like William Lane Craig, you’re good with logic. But again, I reject your first premise (and consequently the entire argument), because you first need some outside evidence to make us think that Christianity might be true before you can start presupposing it to be true or false.
Timothy McCabe writes:
Luke,

I intended to provide two arguments, one with the premise that Christianity is true, and one with the premise that it is not the case that Christianity is true. Surely one of these two premises is correct.

In my first argument, I attempted to demonstrate (essentially) that if (P1) Christianity is true, then (C1) Christianity is true.

In my second argument, I attempted to demonstrate that if (P2) it is not the case that Christianity is true, then (C2) Christianity is true.

Surely you can accept that one of these two premises is undoubtedly accurate, and if as you say my logic is valid, then the dual argument seems to be fully satisfactory to make the case.
Luke Cuddy writes:
“Surely, one of these two premises is correct.” Both could be equally meaningless if there’s no reason to believe that the assumptions they make are true. Again, valid but not sound. So no, I cannot accept it and I don’t think reason dictates that I should, anymore than I should accept one of the two following propositions. “Jediism is true.” “Jediism is false.”

The question is about evidence, not metaphysics. Maybe we have different ideas of what counts as evidence, but maybe you intend this to be evidence for Christianity when you say that, if Christianity is true, “knowledge is possible, reality is coherent.” Let’s grant that this counts as a sort of evidence. Sure, we might find this if Christianity were true. The problem is that on the assumption that Zoroastrianism, Islam, Taoism, many forms of polytheism (to name a few) are true, we might also expect to find this.

[continued]
Anonymous writes:
To me this suggests evidence not for Christianity specifically but for a very general notion of a higher power or even just some sort of “divine ordering” of the universe which is applicable to many religions and belief systems. So even if this counts as evidence, it does not count toward Christianity specifically.

Nope, still not convinced I should assume that Christianity is either true or false, because in the absence of evidence that suggests its truth specifically, there’s no reason to assume it has any bearing on reality that distinguishes it from other belief systems.
Luke Cuddy writes:
Whoops, the last post was still me, Luke.
Timothy McCabe writes:
Luke,

"The problem is that on the assumption that Zoroastrianism, Islam, Taoism, many forms of polytheism (to name a few) are true, we might also expect to find this."

I'm not sure I follow you. In my argument above I explained that if polytheism were true, things would be and not be at the same time and in the same way by definition. This is to say that if something is, it may not be. This is not coherent. So we would not expect to find coherence in reality if polytheism is true. That was my argument: if polytheism, then incoherence.

Likewise for any form of monotheism that suggests we can pay our own debt to our creator.

Simply take any religionX and place it into its proper category (atheistic, polytheistic, monotheistic), and you have an argument above that demonstrates its incoherence... unless it is Christianity.
Luke Cuddy writes:
Let’s be clear. We’re only at this point because I agreed to count “the appearance of reality as coherent” as evidence (in no sense, or in a very weak sense, would this ever count as sound scientific evidence). Plus, what it means for reality to be coherent isn’t entirely clear. All of reality, in fact, may not be coherent. We still don’t have a theory of everything. So we really don’t know if reality is fully coherent (even if it’s certainly partly coherent).

But the greater issue is that you’re still begging the question. In order to clear this up, consider the following argument:

1) In order to be rationally justified in assuming a sophisticated belief system (Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc.) to be true one must first have reasonable evidence to suggest its truth.
2) No reasonable evidence exists to suggest the truth of Christianity.
Therefore, we are not rationally justified in assuming Christianity to be true.

[continued]
Luke Cuddy writes:
If you can’t provide reasonable evidence that does not involve an assumption (which would clear you of the charge of begging the question) then the above argument is sound. For example, here’s what evidence looks like with no assumptions: Evolution says that animal species on islands will appear closely related to animal species on the nearest mainland. This is what is observed.

Here’s an example of what your answer could be: Christianity says that the souls of those who don’t believe in the Christian God will go to hell…

Unfortunately you can’t continue because none of this is observed, neither souls, hell, or people’s souls going there.

But, given your knowledge of Christianity, I’m sure you can come up with an example that can pass the test, thereby throwing my argument’s soundness into question.
Timothy McCabe writes:
"In order to be rationally justified in assuming a sophisticated belief system (Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc.) to be true one must first have reasonable evidence to suggest its truth."

Why?

Either it is true or it isn't. So assume either/or, then progress down the path. If you find a deductive contradiction, you know you were wrong and the contrary is true.

Have I not done this? If not, how not? If so, what's the concern?
Timothy McCabe writes:
"We still don't have a theory of everything."

There is no need for one. Christ Himself is our Greek "Logos", our Chinese "Tao" who became flesh and dwelt among us. These abstract concepts find their resolution and correction and perfection in Him. He is the Justification for all created things. The cause, the Uniting Reality behind it all. He makes sense of unity and diversity. He holds all things together. He is eternally consistent. Why develop a "theory" of everything when the Reason for everything has identified Himself clearly and personally to us?
(John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17; Acts 17:28; Exodus 3:14)
Luke Cuddy writes:
"Either it's true or it isn't."

No, it could be meaningless as I've already pointed out. Again, this is not how science works and the question is about evidence.

"If you find a deductive contradiction, you know you were wrong."

No, because the world is not entirely deductive, and most of science is in fact inductive, so deduction alone cannot be a guide to the truth.

"There is no need for one (a theory of everything)." I really don't want to be harsh here, but the ignorance involved in this statement is remarkable. So where in the Bible, then, is the theory of everything written, the one that unites gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces? Do you deny that these forces are observed, even as you use a machine that is predicated on understanding those forces (i.e. a computer)? Saying that God is the justification begs the question again.

If you completely disregard scientific understanding, we shouldn't even be having this conversation in the first place.
Timothy McCabe writes:
Luke,


"No, it could be meaningless as I've already pointed out."

If it is meaningless, then it isn't true.

"(C) No, because (P) the world is not entirely deductive, and most of science is in fact inductive, so deduction alone cannot be a guide to the truth"

Even if I grant (P), it is still the case that deductive contradictions conclusively demonstrate untruth, which is what you denied. In other words, (C) does not follow from (P).

"where in the Bible, then, is the theory of everything written"?

As I said, there is no need for a "theory"; we have the personal God who "unites gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces". You can find it explained in scripture right where I said: John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17; Acts 17:28; Exodus 3:14, as well as in a plethora of other places, including the very first verses of Genesis.

[continued]
Timothy McCabe writes:
[continued]

"If you completely disregard scientific understanding, we shouldn't even be having this conversation in the first place."

I never disregarded scientific understanding, the scientific method, inductive reasoning or the value of sensual experience. Scripture provides validity for these, as well as validity for the ability of humans to use them (Genesis 4:15; Exodus 4:8, 35:31; Isaiah 49:23, 60:16; Ezekiel 6:7, 14:23; Zechariah 2:9; Matthew 7:16; Luke 7:22; Acts 2:22; James 1:5). My use of science is fully justified based on the authority of my Creator. I wonder how you justify your use of science?

Nonetheless, I am happy to end our conversation if you would like.

God bless.
Luke Cuddy writes:
Meaninglessness and truth are usually not said to be the same thing, depending on the logician you ask. Meaningless claims are neither true nor false, the categories simply do not apply.

"It is still the case that deductive contradictions conclusively demonstrate untruth." We will clearly have to agree to disagree here, though I would suggest you consider at least one realm where it's clear that deduction does not track the truth: the quantum. Have you studied any of the debates in the philosophy of science for the past 50 years?

Luke Cuddy writes:
Even if it's true that God exists and that he unites the four forces, you still have no idea HOW those forces have been united. Without science, you wouldn't even know those forces existed.

Suggesting that we don't need something that our most brilliant scientists are working on as we speak is a clear disregard for scientific understanding, as is evident also from much of what you've said.

Have fun in the land of theology and metaphysics, if you ever want to come down to reality, maybe we can have a more fruitful conversation.
Luke Cuddy writes:
P.S. Not sure using science is the right way to put it. I am discussing debates and conclusions that have been drawn via the scientific method, the justification of which is the actual existence of the research, theory, and debates.

If you're asking what justifies science, that's a huge debate that goes back to Thomas Kuhn and beyond. Again, this initial question is about evidence. If you're asking what constitutes evidence (admittedly a legitimate question), I'm pretty sure part of the problem from the beginning is that you have a notion of evidence that is not always consistent with the way science is done.
Anon. writes:
I'm not sure how logic is dependent on Jesus Christ. I think the argument is that divine intervention is required for order and patterns to exist, because without that divine intervention, things would be completely random and chaotic. I hope I have this right so far.

Since logic is primarily the study of patterns, some form of pattern is necessary. Logic works because consistent patterns exist. But is the existence of patterns proof in and of itself that a divine being is the author of those patterns?

As I understand it (and I don't claim to be an expert by any means) evolution doesn't claim that everything happened by random chance, and is an example of quite the opposite. Everything is put together, bit by bit, through success upon success. Logic is used as a tool to help understand the world we live in, not because it is absolute, but because it works. Every single columnist here has relied on a mixture of logic and assumption to respond to questions. (con't.)
Anon. writes:
Are patterns dependent on a divine being? (I'm disregarding the Christian-specific claim on logic, because any divine being would do,... logically. Ha ha ha...) Science is the exploration of the world, and has provided mundane (as in not of supernatural origin) explanations for many of the patterns in the world around us. There are still things left to discover, to explain, to study. Science hasn't answered every question man has asked. But it is a matter of blind faith to credit a supernatural deity for mysteries made mundane by science.

I was mentally contorted trying to follow the twists of logic required to 'prove' the existence of God. And I realized that 'God' makes extraordinary claims. The burden of proof is thus on God. And frankly, things look a little mundane.

(i realize the Bible claims 'God's' authority. Anything verified only by itself is a bit suspect, dont'cha think? Or maybe that darn logic is failing...)
Timothy McCabe writes:
Anon,

If "mundane" as you are using it means "not of supernatural origin", then what does "supernatural" mean? What is your definition of "supernatural"? What items or processes would you classify as "supernatural" and why would you label them as such?
Anon. writes:
I just use a simple Google search (define:supernatural) to find the definition of the words I use.

Thus: su·per·nat·u·ral/ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
Adjective:
(of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
Noun:
Manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin.
Synonyms:
preternatural - unearthly - weird - miraculous
Timothy McCabe writes:
Anon,

"Science... has provided mundane (as in not of supernatural origin) explanations..."

If "supernatural" means "attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature" then, from a Newtonian perspective, the Theory of Relativity is supernatural, as it is beyond the Newtonian laws of nature.

Is this really the definition you were intending?
Anon. writes:
If I start giving common English words my own definition, while rejecting the previously defined meanings of those words, then my words would become misleading and meaningless.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you arguing that the Theory of Relativity is supernatural in origin? Or are you pointing out that Einstein's theory changed the way we perceive time and motion, and that was somehow beyond scientific understanding? If you limit yourself to a specific period of human understanding 200+ years old, then you can argue anything. I think penicillin is supernatural, if I limit my perspective to ancient humorism.

I restate: It is blind faith to credit a supernatural deity for mysteries made mundane by science. Also, the 'proof' of Christianity, or of any deity, should not depend on how you choose to define a particular word, or require convoluted logic.
Timothy McCabe writes:
Anon,

I was pointing out your (probably unintentional) bait-and-switch. Watch:

Christian: God is supernatural (meaning He is not like anything we immediately experience on a normative basis).

Atheist: Science helps us discover the nature of things. Only natural things have natures. If something isn't natural it has no nature. If something has no nature it doesn't exist. Thus, if God is supernatural (meaning without a nature), He doesn't exist, and science continually demonstrates this.

I'm pretty sure that was your actual argument. If it wasn't, I honestly don't know what you were trying to say. If it was, it's simply a bait-and-switch.

[continued]
Timothy McCabe writes:
[continued]

Christians don't claim that God is supernatural in the sense of having no nature. Rather, we claim that He is supernatural in the sense that when we experience Him immediately (as opposed to experiencing Him through intermediaries or secondary causes), He is unlike anything else. Science does not even begin to debunk this.

In fact, it is the Bible's claim that numerous individuals throughout history have repeatedly experienced God in a sensory manner, meaning that His existence is as scientifically certain as anything else. Finally, science itself is incoherent if Atheism is true; science is not incoherent; therefore Atheism is not true.
Anon. writes:
I think it's a bit presumptive to redefine supernatural as 'without a nature'. The Google definition indicates supernatural not as a negation of nature, but rather as something that is not subject to the laws of nature.

To bring up bait-and-switches, if the definition of supernatural remains constant as Google defines it, then the point I made, namely that it is blind faith to credit a supernatural deity for the mysteries science has made mundane - I won't switch terms for continuity - remains simple and easily understood.




Anon. writes:
(cont.)

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say regarding sensory experiences. Some people claim to have repeatedly experienced alien abduction in a sensory manner. Does that mean alien abductions are as scientifically certain as the existence of God?

The concept of God is supernatural, as defined by Google. God may be experienced by people who are looking for that experience, but leaves no measurable quantification to prove His existence. Without faith there is no reason to believe in God. (faith:Heb. 11:1)

I am personally hoping to find proof of God's existence. Science is, simply, the measure of the quantifiable. It is reasonable to search science for proof that verifies the claims of the Bible, because even the Bible sets multiple witnesses as a standard for verification, authenticating the validity of independent verification. Yet science has not.

To be Christian seems to require careful framing of logical riddles and special definitions to work. No thanks!
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